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 Robert Larkin |
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Posts: 3306 (04/18/08 04:09 AM) sui generis |
Laird Shaw wrote: I think that's a good question. 'Everybody is in alignment with the Dao' is at least a little like saying 'Everybody is doing God's
Will'. Fine for God but it doesn't do me any good.
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Laird Shaw |
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Posts: 119 (04/18/08 04:58 AM) |
More tomorrow, as I'm drunk now, and don't particularly like posting drunk (I prefer to wander off to the pub and save myself online embarrassment):
Thoughts on "Everybody is doing God's Will": what if there's a Devil, or at least Evil with an uppercase E? Then we couldn't say that everybody is doing God's will, could we? Some people might be doing the opposite. Have you considered that? If it's a realistic possibility, then it really makes one question exactly what this Tao is, with its lack of differentiation between polar opposites, doesn't it? I mean, the Tao seems to be ultra-permissive - everything's OK no matter what you do - whereas a belief in good and evil means that right and wrong take on a more definitive shape, don't they? |
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Robert Larkin |
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Posts: 3307 (04/18/08 06:43 AM) sui generis |
Laird Shaw wrote: ... it really makes one question exactly what this Tao is, with its lack of differentiation between polar opposites, doesn't it? I mean, the Tao seems to be ultra-permissive - everything's OK no matter what you do ... I have no idea how you got those, 'lack of differentiation between polar opposites' and 'the Tao seems to be ultra-permissive', although I'm sure you had a lovely time in the getting and one from which I hope there is no hangover.
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vinny the hack |
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Posts: 1684 (04/18/08 01:58 PM) Administrunktorbot |
Robert Larkin wrote: You bought one, too, huh? Pet rocks may be the only pop culture item in history that doesn't appreciate in value over time.
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on. --Dean Martin
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Robert Larkin |
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Posts: 3308 (04/18/08 03:27 PM) sui generis |
With all pets, the great value is in the mutual love.
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Robbydharma |
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Posts: 10 (04/19/08 11:54 AM) No Holiness |
I had loaded Future Philosophy to look for a post in Chop Water, a forum Nat and I had opened there, and I ran across the Dao post and wanted to include it here because it might have a 'clue'.
The Suzuki mentioned in the passage is D. T. Suzuki and about whom it was learned that in the Asian conflicts leading ultimately to World War II Suzuki supported fascism. In reasonably questioning his enlightenment I think we have cause to throw out every single one of them going back to the Buddha himself. I think we ought to because believing someone is enlightened is an awfully trifling thing at which to be engaged. So too believing that weightlessness is necessarily a clue and anticipating the problem Nagarjuna is paraphrased, 'Believers in weightlessness are incurable.'
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Ducky M |
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Posts: 142 (04/19/08 12:31 PM) Self-Certified Genius |
From Taoist to Infidel
I was a happy Taoist for many years. Burned out on schooling I chose to live a simple life, contented at gardening or ditch-digging for a living, doing everything from installing electrical fixtures to waiting tables. But eventually I signed up for a life in the Coast Guard, studying electronics and sonar and living at sea, until I yearned again for an education and thus embarked on a long career as a student of science and ancient history. During all this, in cultivating the mental life that Taoism taught, I had powerful mystical visions, which only confirmed further that I was on the right track. These ranged from the simple to the fantastic. The simplest and most common was that clarity of an almost drug-like wonder, perceiving everything striking the senses as one, unified whole. It is hard to describe this. Normally, your attention is focussed, on something you are looking at or listening to, or in a semi-dream-state of reverie, but with a meditative sense of attention this focus and dreaminess vanishes and you are immersed in a total, holistic sense of the real. It is both magnificent and calming. It humbles you, and brings you to the realization of how beautiful simply living is, and how trivial all your worries and difficulties are. Profound insights about the world would strike me whenever in such a state, leading far more readily and powerfully to an understaning of myself and the world than studying or reasoning ever did. |
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Laird Shaw |
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Posts: 122 (04/20/08 09:54 PM) |
Yes, I avoided a hangover, thanks. :-P With respect to "lack of differentiation between polar opposites" and "ultra-permissive" I meant that it seems to me that the Tao isn't a teaching about right and wrong; good and bad - or is it? I find it hard to decipher exactly what it means to be living in alignment with the Tao. I know that there are some prescriptions in the Tao Te Ching, so maybe I should reread that if I want to find out. I probably have insufficient motivation to do so though. |
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Laird Shaw |
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Posts: 123 (04/20/08 10:01 PM) |
Living in alignment with the Tao involves questioning what consciousness is? Is that what you're saying?
Well yes, how can we ever know whether we have reached absolute truth? The world can be a scary place. Who knows how many layers and traps there are to reality, and who's behind each one? |
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Dan Rowden |
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Posts: 121 (04/21/08 01:30 AM) |
Laird,
All things are subject to the Tao, or flow with the Tao. This is of necessity. To me, being "aligned" with the Tao simply means comprehending what the Tao is. All things flow with the Tao according to their nature. For some us that nature is to be ignorant and remain so, for others of us it is to divest ourselves of that ignorance. Each type is ultimately as "natural" and Tao-ee as the other. |
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Robert Larkin |
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Posts: 3329 (04/21/08 04:45 PM) sui generis |
I set down to read it all through, every word, front to back, Old Testament and New ... I figured now, with my greater understanding and maturity, I might receive more from it than I did as a child. Instead, I was able to see far worse things in it than I ever did before. Ducky, You didn't share impressions of the passage you quoted. It 'doesn't read right' to me. ... you are immersed in a total, holistic sense of the real. It is both magnificent and calming. It humbles you, and brings you to the realization of how beautiful simply living is, and how trivial all your worries and difficulties are. Profound insights about the world would strike me whenever in such a state, leading far more readily and powerfully to an understaning of myself and the world than studying or reasoning ever did. I worry about reading profound insights when those who have had them can't be bothered to share them. Did Laozi write like that? Did Zhuangzi? Did they ever bask in the self-reflected glory of their spiritual accomplishments? Merely talking about substance is not substantive. Basking in the self-reflected glory of intellectual gift reveals nothing of any human value. |
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Robert Larkin |
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Posts: 3330 (04/21/08 04:55 PM) sui generis |
Laird Shaw wrote: Laozi and Zhuangzi are about a way of living. Daoism is known for its
usage of the male-female polarity and others, but even if Dao De Jing is not about 'right and wrong' as such,
the inference ultra permissive is unreasonable.
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Robert Larkin |
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Posts: 3331 (04/21/08 05:14 PM) sui generis |
Laird Shaw wrote: Why are you worried about reaching absolute truth? What makes you think you having anything to begin with, let alone worrying about getting to the end of
it, if there is such a thing. |
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Laird Shaw |
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Posts: 124 (04/21/08 11:07 PM) |
Dan,
If '[e]ach type [of flowing nature] is ultimately as "natural" and Tao-ee as the other' then why did some dude write pages and pages in a book about how to align oneself with the Tao? Surely some types of flow are more aligned with the Tao than others? You seem to be trying to say that the Tao is just things as they are, whereas Taoism seems to have more specific requirements for behaviour than just "be as you are" - your comments are probably where I got the "ultra-permissiveness" which Robby so strongly disagreed with from, and which, in hindsight, seem even to a somewhat Tao-illiterate as myself to be wrong - I tend to agree with Robby in my sober state that "the inference ultra permissive is unreasonable". For example, Robby notes that Taoism preferences certain forms of government over others - hence some behaviours (of governance) are more in alignment with the Tao than other behaviours. I'm sure that we could find other instances of preferred behaviour were we to scour the Tao Te Ching and other Taoist sources. Robby, Why are you worried about reaching absolute truth? Well it might be the difference between future suffering and future pleasure. Even in the material world we are rewarded (a raise or a promotion; a public accolade; even simply a wage to be able to survive comfortably on) or punished (fired from our job; fined; sent to jail; etc) based on our behaviour. Isn't it reasonable to postulate that in the spiritual world, similar mechanisms exist - even if it's something as simple as the law of karma? Absolute truth might involve knowing which behaviours lead to which consequences. I have a gut feeling that I once knew more about these matters than I do now, but of course it's nothing that I can prove. I imagine the world is usually made scary by imagining it to be so. Children often amuse themselves at that. Looking down the barrel of a robber's gun, when that actually occurs, is not the same as sitting at your computer imagining the International Daoist Conspiracy As Led By Satan Himself is going to trick you out of the eternal Christian salvation you are otherwise perfectly assured of receiving. I'm skeptical that anyone is perfectly assured of receiving anything. I suspect that it's all about effort=>reward. As for evil conspiracies, I'll simply say that I've had plenty of experiences that convince me of their plausibility, but I'm not willing to share them publicly. Sorry to throw that teaser out - I just want you to know that I'm not pulling these "imaginings" out of nowhere. |
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Robert Larkin |
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Posts: 3333 (04/22/08 11:54 PM) sui generis |
Laird Shaw wrote: Laird, dear sir, I am trying to think of a single absolute truth in my ken and I cannot find one. Have you got one you'd care to share? I am not
convinced by the mere usage 'absolute truth' that there is any meaningful concept to which it can apply.
Laird Shaw wrote: I was I admit skeptical of it as I was writing it and especially so since neither you nor I are Christians. Alas, while you might not be pulling these "imaginings" out of nowhere the "imaginings" are - we must face it - nowhere to be found. Being good skeptics we must continue with another round of wondering if all you've got are "imaginings", the fact they are nowhere to be found adding credence to the reasonable possibility. |
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Laird Shaw |
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Posts: 125 (04/23/08 05:34 AM) |
Robby, you wrote:
Laird, dear sir, I am trying to think of a single absolute truth in my ken and I cannot find one. Have you got one you'd care to share? I am not convinced by the mere usage 'absolute truth' that there is any meaningful concept to which it can apply. Why, of course I have one to share. Not just one, but three: 1. The universe/reality/something exists. 2. I exist and am conscious. 3. I am currently having conscious experiences. You also wrote that 'the "imaginings" are - we must face it - nowhere to be found', and yet I'd just written that I have had experiences in which these imaginings are to be found. |
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Sherezada |
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Posts: 5 (04/23/08 08:29 AM) |
Laird, for my sake, can you please prove that 2 is true? Or at least give a convincing argument.
Un solo territorio, una sola bandera. Patria libre o morir! |
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vinny the hack |
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Posts: 1707 (04/23/08 11:54 AM) Administrunktorbot |
Sherezada wrote: This is, indeed, one of the most amusing situations I have been lucky enough to witness in a while. Sher, if there's any doubt in your mind that the
person with which you have been conversing exists, the person to ask to confirm or deny it is not him. If he doesn't provide good argument supporting his
existence, if will mean that you carefully weighed the words of a person who doesn't exit in order to be convinced of such.
I understand your point, however.
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on. --Dean Martin
Last Edited By: vinny the hack
04/23/08 01:20 PM.
Edited 2 times.
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Robert Larkin |
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Posts: 3339 (04/23/08 01:03 PM) sui generis |
Laird Shaw wrote:
Sher has gone on to mention 2., perhaps wondering about Descartes and cogito ergo sum, a bit of nonsense forcing Descartes to rely on 'an undeceiving
god' for his certainty in it - The Equine School is the result of Descartes' Horse snorting at his master's foibles. For 1. and 3. see Nagarjuna
and Zhuangzi although since none of the three are really meaningful why waste your time except you might pick up something from Nagarjuna or Zhuangzi.
2. I exist and am conscious. 3. I am currently having conscious experiences. 4. Brush your teeth regularly to avoid tooth decay and oral disease. You need never again in your life consider 1.-3. but fail to brush your teeth and disaster will ensue. If the first three statements represent absolute truths you must know in order to avoid the potentially disastrous imaginings which you again ask us to imagine since you can't be bothered to share them, then do imagine you are forgiving me for what I am now imagining about that imagined need. |
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Ducky M |
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Posts: 143 (04/23/08 07:04 PM) Self-Certified Genius |
Robert Larkin wrote:Richard Carrier did share his insights in as articulate a manner as he could and as far as language allows. How else could you have found out about those insights? How else could he have communicated them? Robert Larkin wrote: Richard Carrier did not bask in the self-reflected glory of intellectual gift. He went
beyond his Taoist experience to become an outspoken infidel and he has been much condemned for that. Are you adding to that condemnation? |
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