"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will last forever."
What is an insult?
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 wannabealot |
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Posts: 12 (04/09/08 10:21 PM) |
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vinny the hack |
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Posts: 1609 (04/09/08 10:25 PM) Administrunktorbot |
Yeah, we also try to teach them that robbing banks and killing people is bad, and yet...
The concept doesn't seem that difficult to me. Most people would say that they try to teach their kids the "sticks and stones" adage. The fact that most people are unable to turn off their feelings indicates to me that it is not as easy as you pretend it is.
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on. --Dean Martin
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wannabealot |
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Posts: 13 (04/09/08 10:25 PM) |
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Dan Rowden |
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Posts: 70 (04/09/08 10:26 PM) |
Well, naturally, that's not the version I was thinking of. If you're operating on the basis of that one you're a lost cause.
"Sticks and Stones may break my bones but Whips and Chains excite me." |
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Laird Shaw |
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Posts: 88 (04/09/08 10:30 PM) |
Dan, my emotional reaction when someone says something unpleasant about me is pretty automatic. I can control how I respond behaviourally but the initial (and
lingering) emotional reaction I can't (yet) avoid. Perhaps it's possible to transcend that automatic reaction somehow, but if so I have no idea how to
go about it beyond perhaps some of the Eastern meditation techniques. I don't think that it's (yet) reasonable to expect that other people have already
transcended the feeling of being insulted.
But in any case, even assuming that none of us ever felt insulted by anything: there are better things to say than those which might have once been interpreted as insulting, wouldn't you agree? Shouldn't we encourage friendly, constructive words rather than belittling/demeaning ones, nevermind that those words are warded off by spiritually superior (perfectly equanimous if you will) human beings? |
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Dan Rowden |
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Posts: 71 (04/09/08 10:34 PM) |
vinny the hack wrote: I didn't say it was easy; I was advocating thought. Sorry if that's too challenging for you and that you have such a low opinion of people's
capacities. It's hard because most people are hypocrites operating out of lies and double standards. Plus, there's the not insignificant fact that
most people, generally speaking, get off on being offended and insulted. Moral indignation is a very empowering
psychological force and in my judgement the most commonly abused (and desired) psychological drug on the planet.
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wannabealot |
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Posts: 14 (04/09/08 10:42 PM) |
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Dan Rowden |
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Posts: 72 (04/09/08 10:47 PM) |
Laird,
Dan, my emotional reaction when someone says something unpleasant about me is pretty automatic. I can control how I respond behaviourally but the initial (and lingering) emotional reaction I can't (yet) avoid. Well, that's true of most people. It's natural, yet harmful and curable. I'm simply saying let's consider the possibility of a cure. Let's consider that it's possible to move beyond our spontaneous egotistical, emotional responses to things; it's worth attempting to do so because they disempower us. Perhaps it's possible to transcend that automatic reaction somehow, but if so I have no idea how to go about it beyond perhaps some of the Eastern meditation techniques. Mate, it's called being rational. It's not space engineering or brain surgery. I don't think that it's (yet) reasonable to expect that other people have already transcended the feeling of being insulted. So what? You keep trotting out this line of argument regarding matters of psychological growth. Fuck other people. Just grow. But in any case, even assuming that none of us ever felt insulted by anything: there are better things to say than those which might have once been interpreted as insulting, wouldn't you agree? Agreed - I think (that was an awkward sentence for me to parse), but the thing is that people only continue to offer insults because a) they're batshit crazy; b) they derive power from your responses. Take away that power (result) and people tend to give up that strategy. We can always point out to them the damage they're doing to themselves along the way. Shouldn't we encourage friendly, constructive words rather than belittling/demeaning ones, nevermind that those words are warded off by spiritually superior (perfectly equanimous if you will) human beings? Sure, there's no reason that we can't do both. You can rub your stomach and pat your head, right? But you see, whilst you give an insulter the result he wants, he will not - and usually can not - be persuaded that his approach is wrong - because for him it isn't, due to those results. Some people can be persuaded by ethical arguments, others must simply be disempowered. We can do all of these things.
Last Edited By: Dan Rowden
04/09/08 10:53 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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wannabealot |
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Posts: 15 (04/09/08 10:56 PM) |
Dan Rowden wrote: It isn't like he isn't trying. *You're* the one touting the benefits of celibacy. |
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Dan Rowden |
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Posts: 73 (04/09/08 11:01 PM) |
Well, there's a certain growth involved in fucking other people, so......um......I have no idea what I'm trying to say.... it's a hard point to
make.
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Dan Rowden |
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Posts: 74 (04/09/08 11:10 PM) |
Let me quickly preempt an argument that I'm sure someone will eventually come up with, the: "Why should I change who I am to stop some arsehole's
arseholeness?" This is similar to asking why one should divest oneself of one's possessions to prevent oneself from being robbed. I would actually
agree with this argument if there were some innate legitimacy to the ego and its attendant petty sensibilities and responses. But, there isn't so it's
an argument that I reject.
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wannabealot |
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Posts: 16 (04/09/08 11:14 PM) |
Dan Rowden wrote: Well, at least we all hope it's hard.
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Dan Rowden |
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Posts: 76 (04/09/08 11:21 PM) |
I was going to give an extended response but I had a bloodrush and got all dizzy. Let's just say growth is hard. There, I've made my point. Now
Laird just needs to rise to the occasion and, as I said, fuck other people.
Why do I feel like a cigarette? 
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Laird Shaw |
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Posts: 90 (04/09/08 11:33 PM) |
Dan, I for one don't intend on presenting that argument ("Why should I change who I am to stop some arsehole's arseholeness?"), but you
haven't convinced me that you have a realistic answer to the argument that I did present: that my emotional reaction to an insult is fairly
automatic. Your response was that I should be rational. To be fair, I've presented a similar argument in the past (on GF) with respect to overcoming the
feelings of jealousy that might arise during polyamourous relationships, so the rationalisation of emotions does hold value to me, but I'm just not sure
that one can ever completely obliterate the initial emotional reaction - that feeling of being insulted or of jealousy - purely through rationality. I would
say that rationality is more of help in guiding one's response after being insulted or after the feeling of jealousy arises. Perhaps, though, with
sufficient rational analysis, these hurt feelings could be cut off at the root. I'm open to that possibility, just not yet completely sold on it: I'm
not sure that "curable" definitively applies.
Elizabeth, the link that you posted is wonderful: a great description of the difference between criticism and insult. |
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Dan Rowden |
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Posts: 77 (04/09/08 11:37 PM) |
The content of that link is just an application of basic principles of formal logic. In a more formal debating format, they might work well, but in a less
formal environment they break down somewhat.
And I'm perfectly happy with your skepticism, Laird. |
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Ducky M |
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Posts: 114 (04/09/08 11:45 PM) Self-Certified Genius |
Dan Rowden wrote:Simple: adopt a double standard. Believe me, it's perfectly logical. In certain cases, double standards are not bad at all. They provide a gradient which enables progress to be made. And this is one of those cases. Allow me to explain. It's wrong for me to allow anything that others say to me or about me to hurt my feelings under any conditions -- no ands, ifs, or buts. In other words, I don't give myself any room to play the "verbal victim" role just because somebody says something "bad" about me -- whether what is said is true or not. It's also wrong for me to say to or about somebody anything which I can reasonably expect -- according to my best guess as to where they happen to be at along that gradient -- to hurt their feelings - unless I must do so in order to protect somebody's ( including yours truly ) physical integrity -- e.g., prevent some bones from being broken. In other words, I don't give myself any room to play the "verbal bully" role just because I know that I can offend, embarrass, or intimidate somebody with mere words. And what is wrong for me in the verbal expression department is also wrong for others. So that's what I would teach others if I were a teacher - which I'm not. I'm just a mere old duck who migrates away at the first sign of trouble, dumping "his" used pixel pattern baggage into the trash barrel in order to facilitate his escape. Teachers have acquired a bad reputation of getting themselves crucified. And I'm just too damned concerned about preserving whatever physical integrity I still have left! Another reason for not speaking ill of others, and not letting what others say about you draw you into dangerous confrontations which could otherwise have been avoided. 
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Ducky M |
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Posts: 115 (04/09/08 11:56 PM) Self-Certified Genius |
I wonder what Albert Ellis the concocter of "Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy" or Dr. Phil have said on this topic. Anybody have any idea?
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Ducky M |
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Posts: 116 (04/10/08 12:06 AM) Self-Certified Genius |
Ironically, by not giving myself any room in the "verbal victim" and "verbal bully" mental closets, I give myself maximum space for meeting
life's challenges.
I also have no room for hiding any skeletons. They must be dealt with in an immediate manner.
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Dan Rowden |
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Posts: 79 (04/10/08 12:14 AM) |
Ducky M wrote: In the latter case it probably would have been: "How much will I get paid for this?"
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Ducky M |
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Posts: 117 (04/10/08 12:16 AM) Self-Certified Genius |
wannabealot wrote: The instructions to posters could have been reduced to just one sentence: "Behave like an adult". Unfortunately, a lot of posters would then have probably perceived that as an insult! |
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